|
Ammunition
|
| eriksen |
Posted on 21-01-2010 07:13
|
Newbie
Posts: 6
Joined: 25.12.09
|
I was wondering what match ammo people currently use. I am looking for consistent ammunition for both indoor position and outdoor prone without a huge price tag. Frankly, with my scores if I shot Eley tenex (or similarly expensive ammunition)I would be just throwing money unnecessarily down range. I have been using Federal 714 which is a special lot manufactured for Dick's Sporting Goods that has the same ballistic characteristics as the 711B Gold Medal at half the price. It has done me well as cost effective practice ammo, but at the suggestion of other shooters whose honesty was welcomed, it is hardly a smart choice if I am serious about bringing up my scores. Let me know your thoughts and preferences.
Edited by Jimmy on 21-01-2010 11:50 |
| |
|
|
| sureshot007 |
Posted on 21-01-2010 09:23
|
Marksmen
Posts: 14
Joined: 21.12.09
|
Don't listen to people that buy into the hype that you need better ammo to improve. I shoot the same stuff and it has always served me well for indoor and outdoor practice. Sure, you'll get the occasional 9 when maybe it should have been a 10, but its just practice, right? Save your money and buy a brick of the good stuff for the important matches. |
| |
|
|
| Jimmy |
Posted on 21-01-2010 11:55
|
Super Admin
Posts: 15
Joined: 15.12.09
|
eriksen wrote:
I was wondering what match ammo people currently use. I am looking for consistent ammunition for both indoor position and outdoor prone.
This sounds like it might be a good Poll question. FWIW, I use ELEY Black box in my 1913 for both indoor and outdoor, the rifle likes it. But if I'm going to shoot something for record or something that matters I will certainly use TEN-X. There are some folks in my club that swear by the WOLF ammo, I've never had much luck with it in either of my smallbore rifles.
Have a great day
Jim |
| |
|
|
| sureshot007 |
Posted on 21-01-2010 11:59
|
Marksmen
Posts: 14
Joined: 21.12.09
|
Funny thing is that my gun HATES eley. I've never really done that well with any grade of it, as compared to Federal 900b. But then again, my gun is 'merican, and it likes good ole 'merican ammo. |
| |
|
|
| Justin Credible |
Posted on 21-01-2010 13:18
|
Newbie
Posts: 9
Joined: 24.12.09
|
My theory is to buy and shoot the best that you can afford that performs well enough to tell if it's you or the gun/ammo at the chosen distance, even for practice. This doesn't mean it has to be top notch stuff. I have had Eley Target and Club that shot fantastic out to 50 yards. The first time I tried my last case of Club I shot a 199 on the ISSF 50 meter target reduced for 50 yards. I called the shot that was out (really bad execution). Now when I tried it at 100 yards it was a wide 10 ring group on the NRA 100 yard target with a couple of 9's. So it's great, at a reduced price, for 50 yard/foot practice but I wouldn't practice with it at 100. How would you know if it was you or the ammo? This is especially important at 100 yards as the consistancy of your position, including pressures on the gun, are critical. If the shot is not an X I don't want to wonder if I made a mistake or the ammo did. At that point you are just making bang sounds.
Now for ISSF or 100 yard matches I shoot Eley Match (black box) or Team (blue box). This includes indoor prone (though I use club or SK for offhand as my variablity is much larger than the ammo). They have both served me well without the cost of Ultimate (Tenex). On the NRA 50 yard card I use the above Eley if the conditions are somewhat reasonable as every X counts. If there are 20+ MPH gusts I will use Club as it saves a bit of money, is capable of 20X, and the missed wind call variability is much greater than my hold and ammo variability.
So to sum it up, buy and shoot the best you can afford for matches and practice. Even better, spend the money on an electronic trainer (RIKA or Scatt) and you will get better practice without having to buy the ammo!
Justin |
| |
|
|
| sureshot007 |
Posted on 21-01-2010 13:21
|
Marksmen
Posts: 14
Joined: 21.12.09
|
+1 for trainer. Worth every penny. |
| |
|
|
| justadude |
Posted on 21-01-2010 17:41
|
Sharpshooter
Posts: 54
Joined: 15.12.09
|
Hey erikson
You ask a question that has been the topic of continious debate since, oh about the time the metallic cartridge was developed.
As suggested, I suspect you would do well to look around for other ammo that might perform better. While I am not going to say Federal made for Dicks cannot perform well, anything manufactured for a specific retailer so it can be sold at a bargain price is likely to have had a corner cut somewhere. I bring this up as the big thing you are paying for with top end target ammo is quality control. How carefully is each bullet weighed, case checked, powder measured etc. There are a surprising number of variables in the manufacture of the lowly 22 round and there are millions of rounds manufactured every year. I digress
As you will note from the responses, there are a number of opinions and they are all correct. This is because ammo also varies from lot to lot. You can have a lot of Tenex that was the first batch off the line early Monday morning that shoots poorly then a lot of Sport (Eley's lowest) that was made at the perfect time that shoots just about perfect every shot.
Now, at 50 feet you are going to have a hard time seeing the difference between lower end target ammo and the best stuff ever produced. (Put some emphasis on the word target there. I have seen some ammo so crappy that even at 50 feet it would not clean an A-36 target with good rifle and good shooter.) When you get out to 50m that is where you can really start to see the difference.
Having said all of that, about 1993 I found a lot of Eley Practice 100 that shot pretty well in both my prone and position gun. I promptly bought 2 cases. As things happen I was completely away from the sport for about 8 years so I am just now down to my last 1500 rounds or so. I would guess that Practice 100 would be something like Eley Club today. Honestly, I also have some Eley Benchrest Gold from about the same era that did not shoot a whole lot better than the Practice 100. Or at least I did not feel like it shot three times the price better than the Practice 100. Now, I did some lot testing for the Practice 100 and I did not have that luxury for the Benchrest.
I cannot tell you a thing about Wolf or SK-jagd. Both have been mentioned in this thread and there are likely some fine lots out there. For reference both my front line guns are Anschutz 54 based. I have only ever tested Eley, RWS and Lapua through these guns. There may be something to the notion of European gun likes European ammo but for higher level competition at 50m and 100y you don't see much American ammo.
Eley's current line goes something like Tenex->Match->Team->Club->Sport
RWS current line goes something like R-100->-R-50->Rifle Match->Target Rifle->Club
Lapua current line goes something like X-Act->Midas+->Center-X
Now assume for a moment that of those three brands you could afford to purchase Club in the Eley line, Target-Rifle in RWS. ($6-$7 per 50 rounds) The Center-X in Lapua looks to be a bit more expensive than either of those so I will drop that for now.
Next call someplace that caters to the smallbore shooter, like Champion Shooters Supply or Champions Choice (there are some others out there, other members my chime in with suggestions.) I say CALL as you would like to check to see if they have a few different lots of the ammo you would like to try AND that they have a few cases of those lots. Next purchase say 100 rounds of a few different lots and or manufacturers (three or four is a good start, three if you are going to stay with one manufacturer or two from each if you are going to try both Eley and RWS). When they arrive, PROMPTLY get your butt out to the range and work with the different lots. When you have made the determination of which shoots best in your rifle, call back and order as much as you can reasonably afford. Then go off, practice and be happy.
In your intro, you mentioned using a 1411 for position shooting. While it is great that someone is willing to lend you a rifle if you really want to play in the 3 position game you should consider that the stock design of the 1411 lends itself to prone shooting and can make kneeling and standing particularly more challenging. Just a side note.
Good Luck
'Dude |
| |
|
|
| sureshot007 |
Posted on 21-01-2010 17:51
|
Marksmen
Posts: 14
Joined: 21.12.09
|
Federal 714 isn't made FOR dicks - Champions Choice sells it (when they have it in stock), as well as most places that sell target ammo.
SK Standard Plus was able to shoot 10s on an NRA 200 yard target for me.
If you have to choose between quantity and quality, unless you are nationally competitive, I will always recommend quantity - simply because it will allow you to shoot more practice. If your budget only allows $1000 for ammo a year, I'd rather buy 3 cases of cheaper ammo instead of 1 case of top shelf. I'd hate it come down to not practicing as much as you want to just because you don't have enough ammo.
Of course, if money isn't a factor - buy the best. While you are at it, buy me some too!  |
| |
|
|
| corning |
Posted on 21-01-2010 21:08
|
Marksmen
Posts: 17
Joined: 16.12.09
|
justadude wrote:
In your intro, you mentioned using a 1411 for position shooting. While it is great that someone is willing to lend you a rifle if you really want to play in the 3 position game you should consider that the stock design of the 1411 lends itself to prone shooting and can make kneeling and standing particularly more challenging. Just a side note.
Let me take a minute to interject...
Although the rifle started as a 1411, the stock was significantly shortened by the previous owner. An Anschutz butt plate/hook assembly was installed. The grip was extended, and a rest was screwed on as well. With the shortened stock and and hook, it is really quite comfortable to use in the "upper" positions.
Now, back to your regularly scheduled program...
John |
| |
|
|
| eriksen |
Posted on 22-01-2010 06:42
|
Newbie
Posts: 6
Joined: 25.12.09
|
sureshot007 wrote:
Federal 714 isn't made FOR dicks - Champions Choice sells it (when they have it in stock), as well as most places that sell target ammo.
)
I guess I was wrong...I think I read that on rimfirecentral combined with the fact I only found 714 at Dicks and Federal did not even carry the lot # in their catalog and when I called Federal they had no idea about that and kept asking me if I meant 711B.
Anyway, it is good practice ammo as it is very cost-effective (now with high prices still only $25/brick). For matches at 100 yrds, however, I am skeptical of its performance.
My primary reason for opening up this hornet's nest, is to test the waters a bit of a topic that I know is also fiercely debated. Of course, you can always buy the best of everything, and it may or may not make a difference. My question was focused more on the "middle of the road" but still consistent and solid ammunition for outdoor prone. |
| |
|
|
| eriksen |
Posted on 22-01-2010 06:47
|
Newbie
Posts: 6
Joined: 25.12.09
|
corning wrote:
justadude wrote:
In your intro, you mentioned using a 1411 for position shooting. While it is great that someone is willing to lend you a rifle if you really want to play in the 3 position game you should consider that the stock design of the 1411 lends itself to prone shooting and can make kneeling and standing particularly more challenging. Just a side note.
Let me take a minute to interject...
Although the rifle started as a 1411, the stock was significantly shortened by the previous owner. An Anschutz butt plate/hook assembly was installed. The grip was extended, and a rest was screwed on as well. With the shortened stock and and hook, it is really quite comfortable to use in the "upper" positions.
Now, back to your regularly scheduled program...
John
Unfortunately, John's right - the rifle doesn't give me any excuses. With the adjustable butt plate and hook, as John described, it is very adaptable to different positions and comfortable. |
| |
|
|
| justadude |
Posted on 22-01-2010 11:10
|
Sharpshooter
Posts: 54
Joined: 15.12.09
|
Hey eriksen,
OK the rifle is modified for 3P, so no excuses there, back to talk'n 'bout ammo...
If you can buy ammo you are happy with for $25 per brick, might I recommend taking out a loan and renting a pickup truck!!! : ) This Federal 714 is confusing stuff. Just took a scan over on TargetTalk and some snipers forum and there is disagreement if the 714 is Dicks only or available other places. Then one post said that Dicks had run out and would not be getting anymore. I guess if it shoots for you and you can get it, all of that is academic discussion.
More seriously, the only way to find out if a different ammo can shoot better is to get some and try it. There is certainly the issue of pricepoint. As Sureshot points out, if you are not getting any training because you can't afford the ammo it might be the greatest stuff in the world but there is no benefit. Your current pricepoint looks to be at $2.50 per 50. WOW!!! Over on Midway I could find some stuff that had "target" in its name in the $3.xx per 50 range. To get to something recognizable I had to get to $4.50 per 50. That was Wolf Match Target and SK-Jagd Standard then Eley Target at $4.80 per 50. BTW there seem to be a lot of people out there pretty sweet on Wolf ammo. Everyone and every rifle is going to have a favorite and there are certainly "practice grade" products out there that turn in "match grade" performance.
Try this, take some of your favorite Federal 714, spend a few dollars on some of these other ammos. Try them out at 50m and 100y. If you can see the difference then you have the answer as to which one is better for you. If it is the Federal at $2.50 per 50 then all the better. Consider also, I save my best stuff for prone at long distance and the not so good stuff for standing at 50 feet.
'Dude |
| |
|
|
| corning |
Posted on 22-01-2010 11:25
|
Marksmen
Posts: 17
Joined: 16.12.09
|
Although I have 40+ years experience in competitive, I too, need a better ammunition strategy. I hate to say it, but for years, I have practiced with, and shot gallery matches with some basic Winchester ammunition. When I migrate outdoors I have used Eley Club (orange box) or Match (black box). Unfortunately, all my 22 caliber ammunition is in excess of 20 years old, and I am hoping I haven't fallen prey to deterioration.
One of the things I have learned, or concluded, from reading through this is that it is important to have an ammunition that performs well at 100 yards, and that it may not be necessary to use it for the shorter distances. Testing seems to have become more important, and you cannot rely on uniformity of ammunition within a product line of a brand, but that is something I have found with reloading components too.
Net is, it will take time to test and try different ammunitions to find one that is "right" for you. You also have to go with, pardon the pun, "the best bang for the buck". I think that ammunition decisions also hinge on what your end game objective is. An Olympic hopeful, or National Champion, will have different needs that one who only wishes to be the club champion, and I am sure there is something out there that will satisfy the varying needs.
John |
| |
|
|
| eriksen |
Posted on 23-01-2010 07:31
|
Newbie
Posts: 6
Joined: 25.12.09
|
I think you're right 'dude. I just have to get out there and try different ammo out. The issue now is finding a place to do it. Presently, I only have access to a 25 yrd indoor range.
I plan on using 'good stuff' for outdoor prone. For me to use it for 50ft position would be a waste. I drop points for a myriad of reasons none of which I can honestly attribute to the ammunition.
As far as practice ammo, I plan to stick with the Federal 714 provided that I can find it. Dicks did claim that they were carrying it anymore - this was more than two years ago. Since then, however, I have found them at Dicks here and there. I regularly check and if they have any bricks in stock, I buy them all. I am now down to my last three bricks. |
| |
|
|
| justadude |
Posted on 24-01-2010 09:20
|
Sharpshooter
Posts: 54
Joined: 15.12.09
|
As corning noted:
Testing seems to have become more important, and you cannot rely on uniformity of ammunition within a product line of a brand,
There is a lot to this, also there are a few dinosaurs here (myself included) that laid in a supply of stuff that shot well may years ago and have not had to jump into the current fray of what is out there. So we are only modest help. I do remember the days (mid 1970s ) when you could just buy a case of Winchester Mark III or Eley Tenex and not have to get too worried about it. It would just shoot. Some maybe a little better than others but there did not seem to be any "bad" lots.
Nowdays, the top end stuff is REALLY pricey and stories about superior lots and bad lots are common.
Yup, testing has gotten more important. Good luck to all of us as we search for the next few bricks or case of "golden bullets".
Someone else had mentioned that price does not always equal performance. I have a shining example of that, a rifle that my father had built for my 17th B-day. On paper, the gun should not have been able to miss, sadly it would never do more than just shoot OK. I had (still have) a box stock 1411 that would shoot rings around it. Food for thought.
'Dude |
| |
|
|
| Metaleer |
Posted on 26-01-2010 18:22
|
Marksmen
Posts: 22
Joined: 15.12.09
|
I found one way to save money and time testing is to follow the matches that are posted for example on Rimfire Central. You get to see how the individual is shooting, what he is shooting and the ammunition. These men are shooting to post their best scores so you can be assured they are using ammunition that they believe in. I then get a hold of the ammunition that looks promising and try it. Each rifle is different and we all know that you should try many different brands. Temperature, wind and condition of the rifle will also affect you choice.
Keeping records will also aid you in shooting better. Some of the ammunition that I shoot in warm weather will not shoot well in cold weather.
In the near future on Rimfire Central we will be limiting the cost of the ammunition in certain matches to give those who want to shoot a fair chance. Asking a person to spend $12 for a box of ammo so he can keep up with those that can afford the best of everything is hurting the sport. We are going to try to level the playing field so more people who want to get out will join us, not drive them away. Shooting is meant to be enjoyed, not to have to take a mortgage out to buy ammunition. Watch these matches and learn what is working, better yet come out and shoot with us. There are Postal Matches for everyone and the forums are enjoyable.
Metaleer |
| |
|
|
| iistowan |
Posted on 27-01-2010 12:21
|
Marksmen
Posts: 20
Joined: 27.01.10
|
I bought a really accurate test unit for ammo testing and was really surprised. I found that SKJag, Rifle Match shoot groups of little fingernail size. The great find is that it costs 575 a case. For matches I still use Eley, Match or Tenex. For 50 foot indoor Eley Club/Team or SKJag work about as good as it gets. |
| |
|
|
| iistowan |
Posted on 28-01-2010 16:29
|
Marksmen
Posts: 20
Joined: 27.01.10
|
I use what is CONSISTANT not what is exspensive. Eley works well at matches, but is a bit costly for practice, except just before the match. I have found SKJag Match Rifle to be a wonderful practice ammo, cost $575 a case.
Best ammo is what shoots well and consistantly in YOUR weapon. |
| |
|
|
| nhoj557 |
Posted on 30-01-2010 15:48
|
Marksmen
Posts: 12
Joined: 15.12.09
|
Just a thought, Haven't used it outside yet but getting good results using Aquila Match rifle. Has same ballistics ( speed, bullet drop) as Eley using same powder (also has the distinctive smell) probably not same formulation. Does not use same shape of bullet because Eley has a claim to that.
Edited by nhoj557 on 30-01-2010 21:38 |
| |
|
|
| justadude |
Posted on 31-01-2010 22:19
|
Sharpshooter
Posts: 54
Joined: 15.12.09
|
iistowan wrote:
Best ammo is what shoots well and consistantly in YOUR weapon.
iistowan,
Just so we don't give the people who don't like guns anymore to talk about could ya refer to it as a "rifle" and not a "weapon"? The more we emphasize that this is just a sport and that none of us are in training for some kind of survivalist group the better off we will be. : )
'Dude |
| |
|
